From Detention Centers to Data Centers: Why the Fight Against Data Centers is a Fight for Democracy

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This week, Unruly Subjects is diving back into one of our most popular and urgent topics: the explosive growth of corporate data centers and the community-led movements rising up to stop them. We are joined by Astra Taylor (writer, filmmaker, and co-founder of the Debt Collective) and Saul Levin (environmental policy advocate and host of the new podcast The Hum).

Drawing from their co-authored article in The Guardian, they break down why the battle over AI infrastructure isn’t just an environmental issue—it’s a fundamental battle for democracy, human labor, and the future of our communities.

But first, host Chenjerai tells the story of what he saw on the frontlines while visiting Delaney Hall, an ICE detention center in Newark, NJ, where detainees have launched a hunger strike. Hear Chenjerai read a letter written by one of the men detained at Delaney Hall.

Plus, stick around until the end to hear a performance from 11-year-old hip hop phenom RoqueStarz, son of RodrigoStarz of Rebel Diaz.

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Follow Chenjerai on Instagram @chenjerai and Bluesky @chenjerai.bsky.social and follow Unruly Subjects @unrulysubjectspod. Get in touch unrulysubjects@gmail.com.

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Additional Music in this episode is from Blue Dot Sessions

Unruly Subjects is created in partnership with Rowhome Productions

Further reading & sources from this episode

Saul Levin’s Podcast: The Hum

Erin Brockovich Launches Data Center Map

Take Back The Land (People’s Remix) by Rebel Diaz

Astra Taylor and Saul Levin’s Article from The Guardian

Hear Chenjerai Read "Our Cry: A Letter From Inside Delaney Hall"

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hey, role home productions. Mother fire.

SPEAKER_06 0:10

Hey, you're dealing with the weapons of cool.

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I just disappears when it's melted the fire. So much in a vaccine. Look at me now, let's look a bit in the body. Yeah, that's the real agent moment. More fucking to the streets in the puebloot.

SPEAKER_07 0:35

And if you hear the stream, take back the line. Go take the streets, baby, take back the line. No, it's the tight.

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Unruly young bully.

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Palatina.

SPEAKER_02 0:46

What is up, y'all? Unruly subjects is outside. Yes, we are. You already know that. Yo, that was that hot, yo. That's take back the land. That music right there from Rebel Diaz, Rodrigo Stars, and Rock Stars. You know what I'm saying? Um, y'all might remember uh we had Rodrigo Stars from Rebel Diaz join the show and broke down how you know Rebel Diaz, you know, weaves together hip hop and organizing, and we got an exclusive preview that they're gonna be dropping a new project featuring uh his son, Rock Stars. I got a chance to see his son perform live, and it was like, oh my god, he's amazing. You know, his son is you know young, you know what I'm saying? We're gonna have a little treat related to that toward the end of the episode, so you definitely want to stay tuned. But this week, speaking of taking back the land, we are going into data centers again. You know what I'm saying? Right, y'all. We had an episode a couple of weeks ago, how to kill a data center. And, you know, we're gonna build on that. We got really, really great guests, Astra Taylor and Saul Levin, who has a new podcast all about this topic called The Hump. So I can't wait to get into it. But before we do, just want to take care of a couple of things. First, shout out to our Patreon supporters, you know what I'm saying? We really appreciate y'all. You know what I mean? More and more people are coming on board in the community. We're getting some more feedback, and man, we're gonna start doing more and more there. It's we are a free show, you know what I'm saying? Like we we make this show ourselves, you know what I'm saying? And we're independent. We want to keep it that way, and you are helping us to do that. So we really appreciate your support. And if you are not already a part of our Patreon community, come on through unruly subjectspodcast.com. You can, you know, join it at various tiers and you know, just become involved, and we really appreciate that.

Chenjerai visits Delaney Hall, an ICE detention center in Newark, NJ

SPEAKER_02 2:50

But before we get into the main conversation this week, I want to talk about what's going on over in Delaney Hall. This is a massive ICE detention center in Newark, New Jersey. And over the last few days, y'all might have seen that this has really become a flashpoint in the fight against ICE detention and deportation. I mean, things really escalated over this past weekend. And what we saw happening this weekend came out of a longer fight over private detention. Delaney Hall is operated by Geo Group, one of the major private prison and detention companies in the country. And from the beginning, folks were fighting this. So New York mayor Ross Baraka challenged the facility over legal permits and threatened to shut it down. That clash turned into a legal fight. I mean, he he the mayor was arrested when he tried to go accompanying members of Congress on an oversight visit. Things have continued to build after that. Uh, about a year ago in June 2025, the detainees in the center started to protest, you know, food shortages and atrocious living conditions, which of course we're seeing across the country. There's also been deaths in December of 2025. A Haitian man named Gene Wilson Brutus uh died one day after arriving there. But you know, the detainees and the community have not been taking this. They've been organizing inside the facility and around it. And so for months, they've been putting out letters, right, written by the detainees who are really giving accounts of not only the conditions under which they were detained in these letters, but they also are talking about what this is costing them in terms of the trauma, the you know, the psychological torture, the conditions, all of it. And then this past Friday, they escalated with a hunger strike. So this started at 4 a.m. And you know, my understanding is you know, hundreds of detainees are participating in this. And one of the voices at the center of this is a man named uh Martin Soto. He was kind of like leading the announcement of the hunger strike, and his wife, Gabriella Soto, has really been leading the organizing and rallying people outside and calling for not just her, for her husband, for everybody to be free. Um, you know, she's a U.S. citizen, she's several months pregnant, and she's been staying outside Delaney Hall as part of the protest, right? And so on Friday, this hunger strike started. More people started coming to Delaney Hall out in front. By the way, I should I I just I do want to say that there are people who have been supporting the folks inside Delaney Hall for a while. You know, um, my wife has has gone with some people that recruited her to go in there and and you know, just talk to the families and support those families in in different ways. So, you know, it's like now Delaney Hall is like right in the center of the news and it's been at these moments. But even in between, I just got to shout out the work of those organizers who have been supporting these families and paying attention to what's going on, even when it's not right in the news. So on Sunday, everything ramped up. You know, Gabriella was waiting to visit her husband when she saw someone being forced into a van, and she thought maybe this is him, but whoever it is, they didn't want ICE to just be moving people, especially people who like they're moving them because they're leaders of this protest. So some other visitors told her that this was her husband who was being moved, and she went toward the van and started banging on it, and the protesters joined her and they actually formed a blockade at the gates trying to stop you know them from moving this person out of the facility. Uh, and so they were all chanting like free of mall. And you could even see the detainees inside banging on the windows in rhythm with the chants outside. So on Monday, May 25th, things escalated even further. Federal agents responded with pepper spray and firing pepper balls. Governor Cheryl said she was denied access to tour the facility that day. And Senator Andy Kim said he was pepper sprayed while outside supporting detainees on the hunger strike. You know, he and uh Representative Rob Memendez went in and confirmed the inhumane treatment, right? Poor food and water that tasted disgusting. They also said that they saw several 18-year-old girls who would have been graduating high school if they weren't arrested in this facility. So I also stopped by Delaney Hall myself, but I I was unable to stay very long. I did get I got there after these confrontations happened, but I saw folks out there holding the line, you know, trying to support the families, figuring out what the next step is. And, you know, I I kind of wanted to think about what's going on here and how do our larger organizations, including labor, need to need to show up in this fight, man, because what's happening in there is absolutely unreasonable. One of the letters that the D Tainees wrote is circulating. Um, it's called El Grito de nosotros or Our Cry, a letter from inside Delaney Hall. The version I have says it was written by Leonardo Vijalba. So I want to read a little bit of this letter, and I'm gonna put a link in the show notes to you can hear me read the whole thing, but you also have the letter itself, so you can read you can just read it and read the other letters. Here it is. We feel vulnerable in a way, kidnapped or detained without justification. We see with profound helplessness and frustration that the right to due process and legal counsel were violated, and benefits granted in the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments of the U.S. Constitution were unacknowledged. In addition, families are being destroyed and separated, especially where there are minor children and nephews who are suffering a very strong psychological impact because they do not understand the situation, and in some cases, they were subjected to witness the arrests of their wives and fathers who were devastated by the tragedy and the economic burden since we are the providers and heads of our households. Additionally, the ICE agents have arrested people with mental health issues, physical disabilities such as deaf and nonverbal, elderly individuals, and young people with juvenile status, with whom we have to live in the detention centers that are overcrowded. The flu is a constant problem among the detainees, as are stress, fever, and general body aches, which could lead to an outbreak of illness or an epidemic. In addition to what was previously mentioned in my court hearing with the motion to send me to Ecuador, I did not have an interpreter in my language. I, Leonardo Vijalba, take responsibility for this statement, as I do not want my fellow detainees to suffer any consequences. Our American dream is safety and protection with our families. Although this is a difficult situation, we trust in God and believe in American justice. On the following pages are the signatures of the detainees who will corroborate what has been stated. So listen, folks, if you're in New Jersey, New York, Philadelphia, or anywhere close enough to pay attention, stay tuned to this. I know we got a lot on our plates, but definitely I want y'all to follow what's going on and support it. Um there's all kinds of rapid response calls, but it's really important to contact the elected officials, even though it seems like they're not letting them in. Um but we got to demand that this stops. And um yeah, I just I just want us all to kind of tune into it. And I would say it's important because you know, to support people at these facilities, even when the struggle is not like at this pitch, it's it's still important to pay attention. In some ways, what we know about what's going on is because there were folks who are already working there.

Why the Fight Against AI Data Centers is a Fight for Democracy

SPEAKER_02 10:36

All right. This week we're gonna return to our conversation about data centers. Y'all know we already had the episode How to Kill a Data Center. You know, we appreciate y'all sharing that because that one definitely got out there. That was about a proposed data center in Monterey Park. But that issue continues to grow, continues to make headlines. I just saw a headline that the storied climate activist Aaron Brockovich has now launched a public data center map and reporting tool. She's asking people to document community concerns around water, electricity, health, you know, wildlife, all those things, noise. So I just it just goes to show you that this fight is really uh catching on. And so I wanted to really find folks who could help us understand the scale of this and who are also really asking some of the smartest questions about this. And then I see this article in The Guardian by Saul Levin and my friend Astra Taylor. And so Saul is, you know, a sort of environmental activist, a policy person. He's also the host of a new podcast called The Hum, which is all about this. It's out right now, you can hear it, and it's following data center fights across the country. And then Astra Taylor is a writer, organizer, filmmaker, and one of the sharpest people thinking about democracy, debt, technology, and power. And so they wrote this great article for The Guardian, and I wanted to bring them on to really deepen our understanding of this issue. I can't wait for y'all to hear it. Here it is. Unruly subjects. Yes, yes. We are here, we are here once again. You know what I mean? Look, y'all, um, a while back, we had an episode called How to Kill a Data Center. Um, it is one of our most popular episodes, apparently. A lot of y'all wanted to know that. You know what I mean? Y'all wanted to stick the pitchfork straight into the data center. And every time someone gives me an account of how this movement is growing, how many of these projects have been stopped, I'm always startled. There's always more than I thought, and different kinds of folks than I thought. So we have today for you. I'm just gonna say that they're gonna deny this, but I'm gonna say we got the smartest people on the stock. They see smarter than me, they know more than you about this shit, and it's it's what it is. You know what I mean? They're not the bad kind of smart people. They're the kind, compassionate folks. Um, we have Saul Levin is a community organizer, host of The Hum, a new podcast which we're gonna be talking about that is specifically about this. Saul is a policy person who knows lots of these things, but got pulled into the struggle, and you're gonna hear how. So, welcome, Saul Levin. First of all, welcome, Saul.

SPEAKER_05 13:21

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

And also, we have with us Astra Taylor, who's a writer, organizer, documentary, filmmaker, co-founder of Deck Collective, philosopher. I mean, all kinds of things. So welcome, Astra.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Thanks for having me. Glad to be here.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. You know, I gotta say, you know, Astra, Astra, uh uh and Naomi Klein, you know, got the book coming to us soon, end times fascism. You know, it was hard. It's hard to let your comrades go so they can write. So um this fight, the scale of it is huge. And I guess let could we start out maybe by having you saw talk about how you got tuned into this? Because you seem like you got tuned into it uh earlier than other people.

SPEAKER_05 14:08

Ten years ago, I was working on a renewable energy and energy efficiency project in Michigan that turned out to be a data center. And I didn't know that the cloud and whatever other words we use for the internet was housed in a building in the center of my home state. But there it was consuming a huge amount of energy. And so I've kind of had my eye on data centers because I was like, where are the rest of them? With no concept that this was gonna be an explosive issue. But two or so years ago, I heard about the political leadership in the Democratic and Republicans parties in my home state of Michigan conspiring to give away incalculable amounts of water and tax benefits to AI companies and AI data centers relocating or building in Michigan. And I was horrified. And that's what initially pulled me into the fight.

SPEAKER_02 15:07

So since that time, you you've come in contact with a lot of people who are organizing uh across the country. Could you talk a little bit about how you got in contact with those folks and what how you got involved with your particular set of organizing skills?

SPEAKER_05 15:24

Yeah, so I've been an organizer in the environmental movement for a long time and and in the labor movement, but honestly, it was about calling people. I started calling people back home in Michigan and saying, what's going on with this water? And everything I would read um was making me more concerned. And people I would talk to would say, you have no idea. There's been like two or three stories about this happening in in the press in Michigan, and there are dozens of projects that are hidden behind NDAs. And so I basically got a head start because we were worried about, you know, Michigan, about the Great Lakes state, and then started getting in touch with people. Today, myself and folks I organize closely with are in touch with people fighting AI data centers in more than 45 states. And it's basically all over the country. And actually, we're in touch with folks fighting AI data centers in the European Union, uh, in Africa, in South America. So it's really becoming a global problem. And we're in touch with folks, and I started a small chat of folks working on this that now has over 300 people across 40 states, and so it's just exploded. And we're trying to, you know, see what we can do about it.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Wow. That I mean, yeah, it absolutely is international, it is important to set up, you know, this just yeah, 45 states. I mean, I just think, you know, it makes sense because what I see, you know, once you start searching this stuff, you know, the algorithm is starting to throw up a lot of these fights, but it it still is not on that scale. I think people don't understand. So, Astra, when did you feel like you really kind of were paying attention to this and realizing, like, oh shit, something different is happening from a movement standpoint?

SPEAKER_01 17:09

Yeah, I mean, and and just to put my cards on the table, like I'm approaching this right now as a writer and and um uh thinking about the state of our politics. And fundamentally, I'm someone who's really interested in power and who has it and who doesn't and how they wield it. And so that that means that I've I've been interested in the internet for a while. And so I wrote a book called The People's Platform, came out in 2014. Back in the day when we thought social media was gonna democratize everything. Um, that was you know the storyline, right? And um, and I kind of brought a sensibility. There was also a time when I was deeply involved in Occupy Wall Street. And so I think I brought this kind of occupy sensibility to my analysis of social media and the internet and basically was like, you know, we need to pay more attention to the business models underlying this attack than just the hypothetical technological abilities. Like, sure, you can have, you know, a digital town square, but that means it has to be run in the public interest. It can't be actually privatized and undergirded by advertising and data mining and surveillance. And at the time, I kind of pulled my punches because there was so much enthusiasm in the culture. People were just so hyped on it, and Google was in its, you know, don't be evil phase, and Facebook was going to connect us to all of our friends. So I kind of pulled my punches.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

It's a pretty critical book, but very critical, but I just I want to slow dig in for just like I want to ask. So, because I read that book and saw it as critical. Was your sense of that you pulled the punches? Was that just because you were like, people can't handle dropping the full guillotine? Or was it that you like, I too was not sure about what might be possible?

SPEAKER_01 18:51

No, I thought people couldn't handle the dropping of the full guillotine. And also, it's funny, the guillotine's been on my mind because people always like, but technology's neutral. My friend the other day said something brilliant. He said, you know, yeah, a guillotine could in theory be used to chop very large carrots, but that's not what it was made for, right? I mean, technology has affordances, as people say. And the way social media was designed in this economic system, you know, had it wasn't neutral, right? And I I was trying to call that out. And I was also looking at the tech executives. I mean, it was on the record back then that Peter Thiel was an outrageous woman-hating libertarian, and um, and that there were these very toxic right-wing ideologies deep, deeply enmeshed in the fabric of Silicon Valley. So a lot of stuff was there, and it felt like the general cultural conversation, like it just had to go in with a bit more hedging and and you know, it's to be in order to be taken seriously, right? And so we're kind of seeing the same movie again. And this time I'm like, we're not, we're not pulling punches, right? The culture is was very critical of big tech already before the data center AI boom. And for good reason, right? Because we saw that this sort of democratizing promise did not manifest. And so, you know, the culture is just in a radically different place. People were have been very critical of Silicon Valley going back almost a decade now. I think it's just sort of a natural evolution for me to be like interested in what's happening with these data centers. And and also, so to come at it from that sort of interest and power perspective as an abstract thing, how is this changing society? How is this changing politics? But also as an organizer, there is something so powerful happening on the ground at these sites because these data centers are the backbone of the AI revolution that is being shoved down our throats. And it's bringing together all kinds of people. And that is something that's pretty incredible. There's a lot of potential there, and that's why I saw when I wrote that piece for The Guardian to say this is kind of a once-in-a-lifetime moment in terms of the potential movement that could be built around this issue. Um, because all that hype is gone, all that democratizing hype, all that uh, you know, the utopian claims some of the AI executives make, nobody believes them. The public sentiment is just in a very different place than it was. It's very different. And they know it.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

And we're gonna definitely dig into what they know and how they're feeling. But by the way, the article that Astra just referred to is called The Fight Against AI Data Centers isn't just about tech, it's about democracy. And Astra uh and Saul wrote this article for The Guardian. It's great, it's one of the smartest things you can read about this because but it what it does is it really, I think, puts this whole fight into a larger movement context as well as um engaging with some of the arguments that might be attractive to smart people who share some of our values. Um one of the things that you know Saul told me was like, you know, he had been, you know, in these fights and or you know, yeah, engaging with the people in these fights, like you said, 30, 40 states, all talking. All these people. And one of the things I'm gonna ask you was like, where are some of the smartest conversations you see happening in in those fights? Like, we see there's clear some clear patterns about the kind of things that bring people in. We've seen the things about electricity and water bowl to the surface and become like big national conversations. And yo, unruly subjects, listen, there's a new podcast that y'all gotta listen to that is out now. The first is how many episodes is out, Saul?

SPEAKER_05 22:29

One episode and one trailer. That's all we got so far.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

It's called The Hum, y'all. Y'all know I don't recommend nothing that ain't fire. So you need to go listen to it. And I I this one is actually, I think, an exclusive because I think the conversation we're gonna play is sniped up, that's not even out yet. You know what I mean? But that's how I do, you know. I'm like, you know, you know, so you know, it's like I'm socialist and also transactional. You want to come on my show, you gotta give me an exclusive.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

Whatever you need.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

But anyway, could you set up the clip that you're gonna play of Ash? Because I thought it was a really rich and instructive conversation.

SPEAKER_05 23:04

Yeah, thank you so much. So this conversation with Ash is a classic conversation that represents what we're doing on the Hum, which is talking to people who are fighting AI and data centers and digging into their own context and story and why they're fighting, how they're fighting, and what's coming up. And Ash is based in Oklahoma, but was organizing on Seminole territory. And Ash and other indigenous organizers were fighting for a moratorium on data center projects on Seminole Land. And it's a remarkable story because they ended up passing a permanent ban on data centers and artificial general intelligence infrastructure. And this is a little clip about their fight, why they were doing it, and how the AI issues and data center issues were connected in the way that they were appropriating and stealing land, language, and culture at once. Could you say a little bit more about the data sovereignty and what folks on Seminole and other tribal folks you're working with at Onto the Earth would like to see? Um, what would be a more appropriate way to think about data storage and uh move away from this theft and consolidation for a few people kind of model?

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Yeah, so we definitely recognize, and you know, this has been like a sticky issue about the needs for the different tribes to have a place to store their data. Um, but what we're arguing is that it doesn't need to be these hyperscale data centers that are owned, like you said, by um these multinational um technofeudal technocrats um who are exploiting the data that's um that's being mined and being stored and being sold. And and really right-sizing down really is one of the things that we're encouraging tribes right now. And Cherokee Nation is a good example of this because they are a huge tribe. Um, they do have huge uh data uh needs, and you know, they do care about their data sovereignty, um, is to really take an assessment of what are your actual technology needs. Um, I think that what we're seeing is that these developers are coming and like dangling these you know fake carrots in front of our tribal leaders, and we are you know pitted against the real life need of being able to economically care for our tribal citizens. Um, but then at the same time, like at what cost and what is the actual um risk involved with that? And so for me, what I what we would like to see at honor the earth around data sovereignty is that belongs to that tribal nation and that tribal nation alone. Um, we think that you know, sovereignty is the right for the tribe, the inherent right for a tribal nation to, you know, decide what's best and and decide what they want and what they don't want for their tribal community. Um, I think we do go a little bit further though to say that like it shouldn't just be the tribal leadership who makes that decision, that tribal sovereignty really depends on the whole community because that is you know what makes a nation. And so it's really important too that the community also has a say in how this data is being stored, um, where it's going to and what it's being used for. And over and over again, we're just seeing um that elders, you know, they they don't want this information being used in this way. What they're wanting is for the youth and for the community to come to them. And so one of the things that we say at um Honor the Earth is ask your auntie, not AI. And that really is just, you know, encouraging our communities to return to our traditional ways, our orals, our oral stories, um, our uh learning how to you know make our food with an auntie, you know, going back and learning those stories from the people who hold that information in the community. And so we think it's really important for people to understand that, you know, our nations and our elders, our knowledge holders, our spiritual leaders, our culture bearers, those are the people that have this information. And generative AI is not going to ever replace that. Um, and I think that's one thing that makes Indigenous communities uh unique, um, and another reason why it's so important for us to um fight against this technology.

SPEAKER_02 27:25

Wow. There's so much, I think, about when I heard that, but but yeah, what I Astra, I'm curious what comes up for you when you hear this.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Yeah, there's so much in that clip. I mean, I think she hints at one underappreciated aspect of this technology, which is the potential for a kind of authoritarian control of knowledge. I mean, it's quite striking that Trump called his social media platform Truth Social, and that Elon Musk, wasn't he thinking about calling Grok Truth GPT? You know, he's also got his Grocopedia's like alternative Wikipedia. And there is this desire to control what people encounter. Um, and that is, you know, they do it under the under the rubric of uh anti-woke, like not woke AI, right? Like that's that's the biggest existential threat to humanity, according to Elon Musk, who's one of the you know leading accelerators of this technology.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Truth is pitted against this their idea of woke, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:22

This, yeah, truth versus woke. And, you know, but it's this idea that their incredibly biased bots can pass as truth. And I think that's that's one part of the anti-democratic appeal of this technology to these authoritarians. I mean, it also gets at, well, what what is the what is the model being trained on? I mean, so much indigenous knowledge is not included in the data sets that the AI is being trained on, right? So what's in there, what's represented, even in the material, what biases are kind of baked into the technology? The questions of governance are really fascinating. Who gets to have a say in how this technology is developed and deployed? And what counts ultimately is knowledge and its wisdom, you know, is it a human being, your auntie, or is it is it this corporate technology uh that most of us have no say over?

SPEAKER_02 29:11

100%. Um, Saul, what what what for you uh stands out revisiting this clip?

SPEAKER_05 29:16

It's it's a it was a remarkable conversation. And and one of the things that stood out is is the way that AI has been jammed down all of our throats and into everything that we use. I actually also interviewed the tribal councilman Tribon, uh wonderful person who introduced that resolution on seminal territory. And he said something that I don't think I'll ever forget. He said, you know, so it isn't just about us not wanting these corporate-owned data centers on our territory. It's actually that we meet on the tribal council to do things to better our community. And this is a waste of time because we're trying to make sure that everyone's housed and everyone's fed. We're trying to make sure that the kids are taken care of and that they're able to learn. And it's not just that this is bad, it's like we are not accepting the framing that this is the pressing thing for us to talking about, like data center or not data center. He was like, This is not a good use of my time. I'm busy. I was like, that is an argument I hadn't really heard before in hundreds of conversations. So I think that's striking. And the other thing I want to say quickly to the power dynamic that Astra alluded to is that when we talk about large language models, we're talking about um something that's controlled by the people making the models and they stand to benefit. But the large language comes from billions of people's labor over generations and generations. And so the concentration of wealth and the theft of data and labor that actually goes into creating and circulating language is unlike any concentration and theft in history, because it's being stolen from every generation that's captured online rather than just the present generation's labor. And so that's why the concentration of wealth that these billionaires are taking on is so troubling and scary. But it's also why so many people with wildly different backgrounds and perspectives can come together on AI and data centers because we all share a love of language and human creativity that's being stolen and concentrated in the hands of seven angry guys in Silicon Valley.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

No, a hundred percent. And uh because the way that this, these technologies and these people, because it's not that the technologies, people are making the technologies do the things that they're doing, are pulling in all this art language and you know, the thing that they're calling these sort of uh calculations which are being told are the same as thinking. That's kind of abstract, I think, for people to wrap their head their head around that theft. But when you think about, like, for example, art, and you can think about it when you're like, wait a minute, you just took my art, you're training this thing on it, you're making all this dough, you're putting out trash, terrible art, by the way. It it really should, I think, um, make us curious. And I hope it does too, and I think that's why one where everyone should sort of go uh listen to the hum. Is if you think you know this story, you don't until you really attend to uh the particular, as uh some certain folks might say, right? It's like it that it does matter, right? To see how this is expressing itself in different contexts. I mean, even what we did in Monterey, you know, the way the kinds of things, and I remember the Monterey organizers talked about how important translating the sort of materials about the proposed data center into different languages was in that particular context. Like that was key. And then to really spend time talking to people to hear for a minute what the stakes were gonna be. For them, it wasn't necessarily water and electricity, it was also like the land value, you know. One thing that um I got to when I went down the rabbit hole after reading your article was that so apparently some of these data centers will they'll propose the data center, and then they'll propose it, like let's say, to the municipal government, and then they'll say, we're gonna make so much money that you should give us a tax abatement for this. And then that kind of happens. So, like, even before people have consented, sometimes the tax abatements are already legislated, so that you've actually already stolen taxpayers' money for the data center before you even, you know, and and people are just maybe even just worrying that this is gonna happen. Like, I'm like, wow, what about that part? Is that is my understanding of that right? That that's how it's played out in certain places?

SPEAKER_05 33:30

Yeah, totally. The way that it's played out is is hard to track because this is happening so fast. I mean, these companies are building a hyperscale data center in a hundred days that's the size of a large American city, right? And so one of the ways that it has played out is that tax abatements and tax breaks and tax incentives and all kinds of different tax structures go to these companies, and then Democratic and Republican governors go out on stage and talk about how they're so innovative. And I can't imagine why someone would think it would be innovative to give away money you don't have and it's not yours. But that is the way that they're talking about it. And to the specific point that you made, what's happening is that everything's happening behind closed doors. Companies are actually getting city counselors to sign NDAs and making agreements that's like we are gonna bring so much money here, and then you guys are gonna not charge us taxes because there's money here. And when you really think about it, who's that a good deal for? Because then the company leaves with their money, they haven't paid into the state, and they haven't created jobs. Like, where is the pro side of that pro and con list? No, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Astra, do you want to anything you want to jump in on?

SPEAKER_01 34:47

Well, I just want to underscore how much secrecy there is. I mean, often people don't know who the end user is going to be. You know, these projects often have these code names. So it's called Project Blue, that was the name of a data center in Tucson, Arizona, or Project Tulip was one in the Netherlands, or Project Sugar was one in Louisiana. So there's there's so much that is hidden from people because these companies know that if people knew who was behind them, they would object even more ferociously. Um, but the numbers are really hard to trace, but it does seem like some states are losing, you know, multiple billions in these abatements. And community members are rightly concerned that this could be a bubble and they're gonna make this big data center. And then maybe it actually won't be in operation forever, and they'll have this empty warehouse and this bad tax deal. You know, there's been some research that tries to even calculate how much money per job it's costing local governments because these companies also come in with these vague promises of jobs. And in reality, we're seeing a hyperscale data center maybe produces 30, 50, 100 jobs, right? So these jobs end up actually costing communities money. So the math is very bad, uh, except for you know, the tech companies that are coming in and raking in their billions and trillions from this.

SPEAKER_05 36:09

And I want to add one thing to that if it's cool. I just heard about a data center project in the city of Boston that's happening above a Macy's. And so this data center project is actually subsidizing the rent for the Macy's to get them to agree, because of course, you know, huge department stores aren't having the best success these days with everyone shopping online. And the organizers I was talking to about it were like, we're almost certain that the data center that's funding the rent of a Macy's employs the most people of any data center in America because you know they're paying the rent for Macy's. And so it's like, wow, we could have a department store, just one, and it would hire more people than the data center. And so, like, the apparently good scenarios are the ones where uh, you know, they're doting on top of Macy's. Oh, God, that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Um well, and the last thing I'll sorry, I'll just say, you know, the the secrecy does you know serve a purpose because, for example, Project Blue in Tucson, when organizers were able to uncover the fact that it was Amazon that was likely the end user of this data center, it further radicalized the community because then the concerns expanded beyond climate concerns, right? I mean, you're in the desert, it's very dry, there are water shortages, to what Amazon hosts on its web servers, right? And it hosts palantir technologies. So then people were thinking about what that meant for the immigrant community living in Tucson, right? People were also thinking about Amazon's deal with the Israeli military and were able to connect the data center to the genocide in Gaza. So that those details, when they're exposed, also expand the coalition and bring in more people to the fight. So there's there are multiple reasons for the secrecy.

SPEAKER_02 37:49

Yes. So Astra, I think that's a crucial point. And one of the reasons why you all have to go read the Guardian article is because it says that the stakes for um our movement building are huge here. The coalitions that are possible when people realize, you know, what kind of data is being produced and housed and extracted. It's like, and what is, you know, what is being used for, both overseas in these wars with immigration. I mean, the coalition building is huge, and that's actually part of the power of this movement. It's also why they have to keep this stuff secret. Really important point. Um, I want to switch uh to a different uh part of your argument where you're talking about the fact that it's easy in one sense to beat up on certain parts of the uh argument that are coming from conservatives and some of these tech folks about data centers. Um but we should spend a minute visiting those and the and the fact that they know that these things are unpopular. But also uh that there are some arguments that might be more attractive. You're seeing some liberal and folks who might imagine themselves even as progressives coming out. And I I want to, it's I think you all can really take us through some of these things and what we should be thinking about in a smart way. But let's start out with uh the panic that these folks are feeling. Um, you all are like, yo, I'm sorry, y'all, but we gotta pay attention to what these people are doing. We gotta listen to some of their media a little bit. And I uh every time you all have pointed me in that direction, I'm like, oh God, I really gotta have to listen to this. And I'm like, oh shit.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

This is we try to listen so you don't have to. That's that's our burden.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Well, let's all listen together for a minute. There's a clip here on this uh podcast called uh All In, I believe it's called.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

And uh it is uh with um Critically, it is hosted by David Sachs, who until recently was Trump's AI and crypto czar, and he has a longtime colleague of Peter Thiel and a major AI investor venture capitalist.

unknown 39:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Long time right-winger from Silicon Valley.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

So in this clip, they're kind of sharing what they know about the the problem that's coming for them. I mean, is there anything else you want to say about it before we play uh uh Astra?

SPEAKER_01 39:57

I mean, this is essentially three venture capitalists acknowledging the fact that the technology they are forcing upon society is deeply unpopular and people are saying no. And so this is this is evidence, I would say, that the people on top are afraid of the data center and AI resistance movement.

SPEAKER_04 40:20

We unfortunately have very poor leadership at the head of most of these AI firms. I think they are coming off as untrustworthy or too self-interested.

SPEAKER_02 40:34

Really?

SPEAKER_04 40:35

The political reaction now is starting to turn negative. The community reaction is negative. You have about nine gigawatts that are supposed to come online this year. Almost 50% of it now is being protested. More than likely, if if history holds, most of that will get turned off. So they will get even more supply constraint. So that's the setup. So what's the opportunity?

SPEAKER_02 41:04

Uh we don't need to hear uh the opportunity, I think, right now. We know we have a sense of it. But what what what comes, I mean, okay, so what comes up for y'all hearing them talk about this?

SPEAKER_01 41:16

First off, these guys are being critical of tech AI leaders, but they do love Elon Musk. They think he's doing this right. So that shows what paradigm they're in. I mean, I think it shows that this is the leverage point. I mean, he acknowledges that this resistance movement is going to be able to slow down and halt AI rollout. And again, this is these are, you know, these data centers are the backbone of the artificial intelligence revolution, right? They need this technology to roll out their larger agenda, which is what they aspire to do is to do, in the words of OpenAI, all of economically viable labor, right? They their goal is to build the sort of human labor replacement machine and to be able to get into every domain from the industrial to the intimate. I mean, this is in their ambitions, this is a general purpose technology. It can go everywhere. So it's much bigger than social media in that way, right? It's, you know, it can chatbots are, you know, are used in this very sort of personal way. And we also see the way, you know, a company like Amazon is automating, using AI to automate its warehouses. So that's the kind of scope that they have in mind. Um, and so to do this, they need to build out this massive infrastructure. But, you know, in 2025, the the data says that almost 50 data centers were blocked and 150 billion dollars of development was slowed down or blocked entirely because of local community resistance. And so, you know, that puts some real sand in the gears of this machine they're trying to build. And we should take note of the fact that they're taking note of that because it shows it's a real leverage point.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

100% right. And and and actually, when you look later on in the in the podcast, when they talk about the kinds of proposals that they have to start to think about taking seriously, you really you see that it's a leverage point.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Yeah. I mean, on the one hand, they're like, darn, we should have branded it better. Like we sort of emphasized all the bad stuff, like it's gonna take your job and possibly destroy the world. They're like, damn, maybe we should have thought of some different branding.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

But then they're also like they go back to this Rockefeller example where they're like, what if Rockefeller had called standard oil clean oil?

SPEAKER_01 43:30

Yes. Maybe that's what we need to do. What if instead of artificial intelligence we called it awesome intelligence? You know, I mean, it's just like, right? Like, oh, we just had the wrong language. And but then they kind of they kind of go right up to like maybe we should give people some health care and stuff and like, you know, some some social security. But then they're all they all like freak out at the end and decide that would be terrible.

unknown 43:52

Well, thank you.

SPEAKER_05 43:53

Right. It's really about the branding in that clip and and the way they talk about it generally. They're like, I'm worried these AI. CEOs are coming across as inauthentic and uh reckless and selfish, um, as opposed to being concerned that they are inauthentic, selfish, and reckless. And so the problem that they're identifying is that regular people know that these guys are assholes and that they're trying to steal all of their data and take over whatever aspects of their lives they please. And it's really funny to me that this is to them, it's about it's a branding issue. It's like the the way that they're talking about marketing is exactly how Astra and I saw this in all of the research and all of the different essays we're reviewing, right? It's like, wow, these folks are talking about the end of civilization as we know it for everyone but them. And they're like, this is a branding issue. That's almost hard to fathom how bizarre and problematic that is, but that that that's what they're saying.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Unruly Subjects is supported by listeners just like you. Join us at patreon.com slash unruly subjects. And um, you know, I it's like really interesting to just hear their accounts of like what the vibe is like. I mean, it's because meta they're so brutal in the way they're doing it, even to their own workers. Like they're just like, you have to use AI. I mean, you heard Mark Zuckerberg say this, but it's what's it was interesting, it's fascinating, is he doesn't really like there was like it's a leak of Zuckerberg saying, you know, to you know to shareholders or whatever how they're thinking about AI as though, but it's like he also talks to the workers like that. That's just kind of how they are, right? They don't they don't they don't even try to couch it as anything in their benefit.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

No, I mean what he's saying is AI is gonna spy on every click you make on your computer to train the AI to do your job as soon as possible. And they don't they don't lie.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

I mean, I don't know. I I think that the the massive uprising and unpopularity of both these leaders and these data centers are evidence that it's you know, it's kind of these arguments aren't resonating with people, and in a way they're kind of easy to push back on. But there are arguments that are harder for people to weed through or that might seem more appealing, especially for people who really want to think about what the practical solutions are. So, what do you think are arguments that are coming from a more left place that we need to think about, uh, maybe in a critical way, uh, Astro?

SPEAKER_01 46:34

I think there are a lot of people across the political spectrum in the United States who believe that technology is inevitable and that to be skeptical of technology is Luddite, is naive. And so that I think that's part of what's undergirding some of the pushback from left and liberal circles on the data center movement, right? It's like, well, this is the future, it's coming whether we like it or not. And so therefore you shouldn't be too extreme in your resistance to it.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

But do you think that I've heard a lot of people push back on inevitability, and that I think is important to do because it is absolutely true that uh, you know, people who are sort of technological utopians, um, I mean, I I don't even want to give these people the the credit of calling them utopians, right? It's like let's not just just the utopians, but tech the people who are just like, you know, um pushing this stuff are like it's inevitable. But do you think that there's some some of some people are saying it's inevitable because it's here. There's a tremendous amount of venture. Well, there's some like crazy push and of venture capital went into AI. It's in all these things with us already. So that do you think that some people are saying it's not that it's inevitable, but that this is actually the terrain of struggle right now? Like we, it's not like like the kind of refusal that some people imagine is maybe not like it's so already embedded in so much stuff. Like, how are you gonna, you know what I'm saying? Are you gonna about to throw your phone and computer away? Like, what are you gonna do? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 47:59

Yeah, I mean, I think that, but I think that that's kind of connected, right? It's like it's here, and so you know, on some level, we got to get used to it. Maybe we can tweak it around the margins or something like that. Um I mean, I think there's a there's a sort of good faith argument that's critical of this movement, I think. And and that version is like, is it the most strategic thing to block data centers one by one? Aren't you playing kind of a whack-a-mole, right? Shouldn't somehow we aim for legislative solutions? I think that, you know, I think Saul and I agree that that misunderstands how you actually build movements and build power and how you get that disruptive force so that you can, you know, make a company like Google or Meta or an adversarial administration come to the table and make some concessions.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

And I would argue that people are saying, are you saying people are kind of like, don't fight them one by one, like somehow people always I mean, this is just like I've been an organizer for a long time, saw has too.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

I mean, people are always telling you when you're an activist, like you're doing it wrong. Right from my armchair, I can see that you should be doing something else. So it feels to me like and those people aren't always terrible people, it's just like they've maybe never tried to put their theories into practice. But there are other arguments that I think are coming from a different orientation, one that is more pro-AI in general, right? That thinks that we should embrace this technology on a much bigger scale, and that there are bigger philosophical disagreements, I think, from where I stand and where these people are coming from. And some of those arguments can be critical uh in a way that I would say is maybe not bad faith, but just like I think I think that they're naive and misguided. So that was, you know, we were responding to a piece in Jacobin magazine by an academic named Holly Jean Buck, who has a history of writing about, you know, um, geoengineering is something that the left should support and has a kind of tendency to take on the left flank of the environmental movement and is now, you know, saying that the data center movement, the anti-data center movement is a dead end because of all these reasons that ultimately are industry talking points, right? That somehow we will be making the world less equitable if we do not let AI roll out on this massive scale.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

So another um kind of argument, I think, in the realm around data centers that might be, you know, confusing or interesting for people has to do with uh, you know, some things that appear to be regulation or you know, uh deals that have been struck with some of these tech leaders to essentially say, well, what if they just pay? If you're saying the problem is like electricity, you know, costs are gonna go up. What if they pay? Those kinds of things. And you know, in this regard, there was an interesting um piece of messaging that you shared with us, Astra, that came from Congressperson Nancy Mace in South Carolina. And I'll just pull it up, but we'll read it for our listeners. And Mace says, South Carolina's families are already stretched thin. I agree, Nancy Mace, just letting you know I agree so far. The last thing they need is a higher electricity bill subsidizing big tech's bottom line. I I also agree with that. So far, we're agreeing. We are calling for a one-year moratorium on new data center construction in South Carolina. I mean, you know, our experts, Astrosaw, what do we think so far? So good. So far, so good. No notes. After that, after that, the rules are simple. Data centers pay their own way. Florida got it right under Governor DeSantis, requiring data centers to cover the full cost of the power and infrastructure they demand. South Carolina must do the same. South Carolina families and small businesses will not foot the bill for big tech. Not on our watch. I mean, it feels you know, it feels militant resistance. I mean, what what is but uh but what are the problems with this?

SPEAKER_01 51:59

The problem when it's framed with tech companies paying their own way is that it encourages them to build out their own private power plants, which they have the ability to do. Uh, for example, I reported from Memphis, which is where Elon Musk has built his three Colossus supercomputers in in Memphis, Tennessee, and in the surrounding areas. And he has powered them by hooking up these temporary gas turbines. And that's industry standard at this point. And, you know, one of these computers, the first one, uses enough power generation that it could power 300,000 homes. Colossus 2, which is now being rented full-time from it by Anthropic, uses enough power for 2 million homes. And sure, they're not hooked up to the city's power grid, but they are emitting huge amounts of carbon. So it's one of these things that, you know, it's what the right wing does, right? They fill the vacuum when there isn't a sort of clear left, progressive, equitable, sustainable policy vision and propose measures that actually deepen the fundamental crises. So it's dangerous, it's dangerous messaging because you read it and you go right on.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Right. But then, yeah, you're you're definitely uh tapping into and creating even, you know, a big boon to the tech companies and a big boon to the fossil fuel companies, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:16

We're gonna be providing energy.

SPEAKER_05 53:19

So, yeah. And on surface, I mean, this is accurate. And it's worth saying that this tweet from Nancy Mace is a higher quality response to data center build out than most democratic governors across the country. I mean, there are meaningful things that we can pick at, but saying, hey, like we're not gonna pay for these big companies to do whatever they want uh is actually a profoundly reasonable thing for her to say. Of course, Nancy Mace has consistently voted against any kind of safeguards against corporate greed, environmental regulations, um, and all kinds of other safeguards for people who live in South Carolina. So it's it's a pretty disingenuous thing for her to say, but it still actually puts her ahead of Governor Whitmer in Michigan, of um, you know, Governor Pritzker in Illinois in terms of actually raising significant concerns about the state paying for data centers. And also it's worth noting that to Astra's point, there's nothing here saying what they're actually paying for. Are they paying for the environmental costs if they bring gas plants online in the state of South Carolina to residents in terms of air quality? Are they paying for the cleanup of the area around the data center that gets destroyed in the rapid construction? Are there actually systems in place to make sure that other residents' utility bills don't go up if there's new demand on the grid? There's nothing here, there's absolutely no meat or teeth behind this argument. And so she's just kind of saying, uh, resist, this is bad, while having a tremendously consistent voting record of giving away power to big corporations. But this it is really quite sad that it would be a huge win for a Midwest Democratic governor to put out the same tweet.

unknown 55:08

Ouch.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

And I also just want to also add in the obvious thing that even this framing and this shape of this appeal would not be possible. That that's a reflection of the fact of all these movements that people have built, built, they've made it clear people ain't taking, they're not going for the okie doke. So then you at least gotta come up with, you know, you gotta position it this way. Like that's a reflection that they're feeling the power and that there is a potential for leverage here.

SPEAKER_05 55:32

Absolutely. And in South Carolina, in particular, there has been really robust organizing in the environmental justice community. There's been a lot of organizing in black communities that has forced politicians on both sides of the aisle to reconsider running around and and making giveaways to data center and AI companies.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

Right. Even if they still trying to play the three-carbani with it, you know what I mean? So um one other argument I want to engage before we kind of wrap up is um Astra, you were mentioning that there were some people who have said by all this robust data center pushback here, these projects are just gonna be sort of displaced or reimagined in other parts of the global south or other other, you know, locations. Um and so in that regard, uh, you're just kind of like moving the problem or something like that. Could you lay out what you think those people are arguing and what you know how you evaluate that argument?

SPEAKER_01 56:31

Yeah, this was one of the arguments that Holly Jean Bug made in her Jacobin piece. Uh, and you know, she had different critiques of why she thought that the data center movement was bad. I mean, one, she didn't like, for example, that it brought people of different ideologies and political persuasions together, right? She was like, well, not everyone's on the same page with the ultimate vision of how society should be. I mean, I think Saul and I would be like, that's great. We want to build coalitions and work with people who don't all, you know, exact exactly agree with us. Um, you know, she said she wanted democratic governance of AI. I think we believe you have to have disruptive protests to get the other parties to the table. You know, but one of her points was that it will increase inequity if you if you block data centers in the United States, they will be outsourced and built abroad. Um, and that sounds persuasive, but it's actually trickier in real life. I mean, there's reasons that data centers are being cited where they are being cited. That's because they need, you know, quality fiber optic cable. They need stable energy sources, though sometimes they are building their own power plants, as we just discussed. They need skilled labor that can build out these warehouses at this rapid speed. And they also want to be geographically, physically close to where the data is going, right? It's faster and more efficient when data centers are nearer to you. That holds true for AI data centers and for good old-fashioned, you know, pre-AI, just you know, general internet data centers. So I think there's there, this is why people in these communities have actual leverage. Now, if we zoom out, the tech bros are talking about moving data centers, but they're not talking about moving them to poorer countries. They are talking about moving them to space. They're in their dreaming of suborbital data centers. And in fact, if you look at the deal language that Anthropic made when it rented out Colossus II, which is that supercomputer outside of Memphis, it says, we're so happy to make this deal with Space XAI, as is now called, right? So they are paying Elon Musk billions and millions of dollars to rent out this computer. They're saying, we are so happy to have made this deal to get this compute that we need to build CLOD or chatbot, but we cannot wait to build data centers in space and to fill the night sky with more space junk. So anyway, I think it's I I think the point is, you know, these data centers are a choke point that we have in the here and now. Let's not make the perfect anime of the good. And real investment should be made in this movement and in seeing what potential can flow from it because it touches so many things. It touches climate, it touches labor, it touches what it means to be human and to have human relationships, it touches issues of knowledge, um, it uh relates to all kinds of things that bring in all sorts of people and can build a kind of populist, you know, anti-billionaire movement, which is exactly what this country needs right now.

SPEAKER_02 59:27

Yes. And on that note, I know lots of our unruly subjects want to know how they can plug in. Uh, there's lots of folks who are probably already involved in this fight, but there's other people who are like, man, what do I do? How do I plug in? How can I support? So the first thing I just want to say that you gotta you should do is go read the article, this Guardian article. Um, and the other thing is to go listen to the Hum podcast, subscribe, leave a review. We got you want this to we want it to support this because you know, this is this data center is there's a lot of information about this, it's gonna come through, really, really good stuff. And then, you know, we also want the hum to keep going. But what in terms of uh, you know, yeah, how people can plug in, what do you all want to share with us?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:10

Well, I just want to start by saying that the number of people who I've met who have meaningfully interrupted huge AI companies, who are farmers, who are social workers, who are cosmetologists, who are 20 years old is unbelievable. And that's just people that I've met. So folks who are listening have maybe met other folks who have been resisting data centers and AI and big tech companies. And so the first thing I would say is that you actually can have a shockingly large impact because of the concentration of power in these choke points and the way that there's actually lessons being learned from all over the US and all over the world about how to fight back against these. And so if you have a data center project being built near you that you're concerned about, or you have a friend who's near one, you know, feel free to reach out to us. We respond to every Instagram message and outreach to the Hum podcast and help people connect to organizers in your state. And so if you want to get involved in this fight, there's very concrete ways to do it. And you don't have to be able to know how to do anything. You don't have to be a career organizer. Most folks who have jumped in know how to cook a meal or know how to tie their shoes, and that's enough to be able to pitch into meaningfully overcome the power of big tech in this moment. I love it. Astra?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Just gonna echo Saul. He nailed it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

We really want to thank y'all for coming on Unruly Subjects for all the work you're doing. It's very uh energizing to have ways forward and to learn about this and to have this sharp analysis. I just feel like I got so much smarter as a result of this, and uh I really appreciate

11-Year-Old Hip Hop Phenom RoqueStarz

SPEAKER_02 1:01:49

it. All right, all right, Unruly Subjects. Yes. And now we got a hip-hop treat for y'all. You know what I mean? Um, y'all might remember a couple weeks ago we did a whole episode about hip-hop and politics and organizing, how hip-hop helps us to understand the world, but also how people are organizing with hip-hop and doing really powerful things. And I was blessed to have a hip-hop artist named Rod Starrs from a group called Rebel Diaz, which is, you know, one of my favorite groups, on the show. He came on unruly subjects and was talking about all those things and how they built culture. And oh man, you definitely want to hear this episode if you haven't heard it. But at the end of that episode, he gave us an exclusive preview. He told us that he's getting ready to uh Rebel Diaz is gonna come with a new project and that his son, Rock Stars, is gonna be on the album. And then I got to see his son perform recently at an event. And it was like, oh man, his son really got bars, man. His son is like, I think he's 11 years old, you know. And it was this was at an event called the People's Forum. So it was a sort of panel about a really important film called California Story. The film is about, you know, gang databases and policing and surveillance and how people are fighting that. So you want to see that. But at the end, Rockstars, you know, Rodrigo's son, came up on stage and blessed us with a really powerful song. The first song you perform, you probably heard at the top of the episode called Take Back the Land. And I want to actually give you some footage. I asked permission if I could give y'all some live footage from the performance so you could just hear how talented Rockstars is, and you know, how he's sort of incorporating a song that basically, you know, yeah, like it's the song is a real tune, man. Like it's it's it makes you move, but like, oh my god, the political analysis and content in it is is just wild. So we're gonna go out on that, and much respect to uh Rockstars and also to uh his father, uh Rodrigo Stars.

SPEAKER_08 1:04:00

Venezuela! Take back the lane! Why don't we take back the man? Hey! Siempre palaste, hey, yay go in the grandness, siempre palaste, some cuello. I see some beautifully smells in batteries, so no batteries, yes, president, yes, that's the real is your streets and when no just this melt, please, so take back the last. Don't take the streets, baby. Take back the last people, please put the last now is the time to take back the last Balletina Sick Summer Save the Black Sagitta. Why does we take back the workers? You gotta purpose we are more than just what we can purchase. We must invite it to be this reverse and leave it on the surface. Stop with the surface, stop with the rays, okay and hey, we're not allowed to turn us into sleeves. Nah, take a money that we're gonna get on the window. And if we hit the sun, take back the bats. Go take the streets, baby, take back the land. When the people please put up your hands. Now is the time to take back the land.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

Yeah, yeah, take back the land. Yeah, yeah. Take back the land. Yeah, man. Big shout out to Rock Stars, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, really appreciate that. All right, y'all. Unmoved these subjects is produced in partnership with Ro Home Productions. Boy, I'm proud of Ro Home. Alex Lewis is Ro Home's creative director. John Myers is Ro Home's executive producer. Thanks to Dania Abdelhamed, Nikolai Kovach, and Owen Sao. Shout out to my wife, Sonica. Shout out to my daughter Inyola. Shout out to my assistant Carissa. And big, big respect and shout out to my guests this week, Saul Levin and Astra Taylor. You know what I'm saying? Appreciate y'all coming on and tolerating me while I'm out here doing funny interviews. Speaking of guests, did you hear our episode from last week? How the Informed Consent Coalition is fighting the family policing system in hospitals and beyond with Desiree Wright and Dr. Arinma Ukoa. I mean, everybody who listened to it is telling me, wow, I did not know this was going on, and I'm so glad to hear how people are fighting it. So you definitely want to check that out. Our theme music was composed by Axel Kakutier. Alex Tatusian made our Tal art. Make sure you subscribe to Unruly Subjects wherever you get your podcast. Unruly Subjects is now on YouTube, y'all. So you know I mean, if that's the easier way for you to access it and share it, go check that out at Unruly Subjects. You can follow the show on Instagram at Unruly Subjectspod, and I put all kind of wild stuff up there too. My personal Instagram is at Chingerai. And another thing is we want to know why you listen to Unruly Subjects. For real. And we will be back soon. Peace.